Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Virginia Yonkers - Friday, 2 February 2007, 12:54 PM
  I am going to present an analysis of what I feel are some of the important points within George's presentation from the view of Businesses and Business/Workplace training and education. First, my view point comes from 17 years of teaching within the field of business and working in the field of international business. Therefore, much of my perspective comes from the changes that is the result of globalization and the use of ICT's (Information and Communication Technology).

In my 17 years of teaching, I have seen a need to shift my teaching from one of finding information to one of developing student skills to shift through information. This is similar to George's point that we now need to know where or who to get information from rather than just finding the information. He spoke of "rapid knowledge" which I would rephrase as dynamic knowledge. As some of you commented during the presentation, "business has to react or they go broke", access to information is like "drinking from a fire hose", and businesses have to respond quickly or they will be out of business. However, as one of you commented, business has not really changed in how they use knowledge. So the question is: is it necessary to change the organization before connectivism can be useful? In other words, if everyone in the organization is thinking alike, there is an "organizational knowledge" that has been created, won't there also be a tendency to squash creative thinking, thus making connectivism just another way to socially engineer an organizational structure/culture?

Some of the knowledge management research has looked at how successful companies manage to stay competitive in such a dynamic environment as we live in today. Moreosini & Renaud (2003) indentified five sets of higher order knowledge integration mechanisms that successful companies use to stay competitive. They further define these factors as relational (boundary spanning leadership and mobility of boundary spanning leadership), structural (communication and coordination), and cognitive (organizational building blocks). These can be applied to George's idea that we learn through how we make the connection (relationships, understanding the structures in which the connections are made, and understanding the organizational culture and accessing knowledge embedded in the structure). The question is, how do we train and set up organizational mechanisms to maximize learning through connectivism? Can it be done? Is it through learning or through structures that employees will create knowledge and add to the organization's worth?

Finally, there needs to be more discussion of the relationship between the group created or organizationally created knowledge and the individual that is part of the group or organization. According to George, individuals need to have skills in pattern recognition, learn how to form a network, have an acceptance of uncertainty & ambiguity, and be able to think critically and creatively? Is this possible at the group or organizational level (throughout the network)? Is it possible for individuals tied into a group or organizational network that may frown upon going "outside" of the organizational network? How do we connect in a climate where openness outside of an organization is a business liability, customer relations advocates one way communication (learn from the customer but don't give away too much without charging for transfer from of information from the company), and strong intellectual property laws that don't promote exchange of ideas without payment?

Reference: Morosini, Piero & Renaud, Olivier (2003) Knowledge Integration Mechanisms and the Competitive Performance of Firms-An Empirical Investigation. IMD Working Paper 2003-2/


Picture of Peter Clitheroe
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Peter Clitheroe - Friday, 2 February 2007, 01:17 PM
  Wow Virginia, there's a lot to tackle there! I wonder if there might be more than one thread.

On the question of "organisational knowledge" (para 2), I would suggest it depends on just HOW people are thinking alike. If they are all coming to the same conclusions and developing group think then yes, the dangers are clear. But what if their thinking alike entailed the creative thinking you mention along with critical thinking (including self-critical) and a healthy degree of subversive thinking one can see an organistation that would be regularly nudged out of complacency.

I think we also need to be conscious of the terms "group" and "network". You may well have a formal group within an organisation with defined membership and goals but connectivism surely comes into its own when networks are operating within and beyond the organisation in very fluid and evolving patterns. Of cause this is all a bit frightening for many "company people".
Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Virginia Yonkers - Friday, 2 February 2007, 07:55 PM
  I have reposted my comments in the Day 1 forum and done as you suggested, breaking it up into three different threads. You make a good point of the distinction between network and group. But for learning theories, I wonder if we can make that distinction. Groups can also be dynamic.
Picture of Peter Clitheroe
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Peter Clitheroe - Saturday, 3 February 2007, 09:09 AM
  Yes, I would agree that groups can be dynamic too but for me, the distinction is that groups feel like a group when members are all directly connected with each other. Network members, on the other hand, don't need to be in direct 1:1 contact and trust that indirect connections with people they may well never have direct contact with will enrich the experience of everyone in the network. I suspect that Stephen Downes may just have something to say on this.

Furthermore, networks can draw expertise, information, etc. from members of other networks. I guess for me it's about not limiting the possibilities by putting self-limiting walls around groups.

There is also the problem of group size. The noted British management guru Sir John Harvey-Jones once pointed out, a while ago, that there is no such thing as a group of more than eight people. Beyond that it will tend to break down into smaller groups. It's just part of human nature. I think he has a point.

[Enjoying the conversation]
Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Level of learning
by Virginia Yonkers - Sunday, 4 February 2007, 04:02 PM
  Yes, but don't you feel you may have different levels of learning depending on the group, what you know about the group, and the trust within the group. I have seen this with my students where a high level of trust actually interferes with learning because they don't question others at the risk of alienating them. On the other hand, some people seem to learn best when they are in groups. Why is that? There needs to be more analysis and thought about the "network" as just connections and the other "relational" elements that go into making the network.
Picture of Vicki Davis
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Vicki Davis - Friday, 2 February 2007, 08:27 PM
  Do you have a hyperlink to these resources? I'd love to read them. Did you post them on the wiki?
Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Virginia Yonkers - Monday, 5 February 2007, 07:01 PM
  I posted it in the day 1 discussion forum.
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by simon fenton-jones - Sunday, 18 February 2007, 04:23 PM
  Thanks Virginia,

So yur perspective " comes from the changes that is the result of globalization and the use of ICT's". OK. And we know that ICT, the org view, and media, the outside of org view, is attempting to merge. The TV and PC are becoming TPC.

We also know that web 2.0 stuff is changing inside/outside perspectives, say from this to this. Problem is, we are trying to watch the change in one-way institutional & National media towards a model where two-way media is built around global groups (that's my thesis) . And we are in a bit of muddle aren't we?

On one hand we have the institutionalists lining up their technologies a la ltc.unimanitoba = wikis, globs, moodles (but no youtube yet), and on the outside we can see members of the same community doing exactly the same thing! So when a global community gets together for a conference, and it's hosted in an institutional domain, the links to the differently formatted learning objects on the outside point to (in this case, looking down the right hand side) a place on nine different (web 2.0) networks.

Let me pose this idea to you. We are watching the advent of interactive narrowcasting stations built around subject specific global groups. Academics seem universally unqualified for taking advantage of this shift as they confuse eteaching with elearning, and their multimedia production skills, to be polite, are lacking. To be clear let me use Megatrends definition.

'Elearning is the use of new multimedia technologies and the Internet to improve the quality of learning by facilitating access to resources and services as well as remote exchanges and collobaration'

While academics theorize about what, due to IP technologies, may be happening, media students interested in the same sort of things are busily building the kind of global learning environments .ac's can only dream about. And guess what? People keep coming back, again and again and again. Quite an achievement, which makes them sustainable with gov funding. But I can't see that we will really see a way forward until national librarians have agreed on a classification system for similar global groups. Say groups.edu, groups.edu.au or groups.ac.uk. Can't see what is would be for the .ca domain. Do you have a domain for edu institutions?
Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Virginia Yonkers - Monday, 19 February 2007, 08:20 AM
  I like your idea of coming up with new ways to categorize information and connections through the web. However, I see that connections are made in many different ways outside of the web. I co-author with a colleague I met at a traditional conference. We have only met face to face once, but that was enough to begin the connection. For the last 4 years we have published and presented 4 papers together. Last year, I was unable to make the AERA conference due to distance and family obligations. She presented my paper for me there where I made connections with a group of researchers in Holland and Belgium. Without her presence, I would not have made that connection. We maintain and make the connections through e-mail and the telephone. Very little, with the exception of our conference presentations and published papers, can be traced on the internet.

However, the connection she made at last year's AERA conference has made a difference on my work as I was able to access the work of others that have similar as mine.

I see also that my students don't make connections through the web as much as through their ipods and cell phones. As I walk through our campus in between classes, I see hundreds of students (we have an enrollment of approximately 10,000 students) seemingly talking to themselves, but really they have earphones and microphones in which they are speaking via cell (mobile) phone. It took me a while to figure out who they were speaking to! They are not making connections to the hundreds of others that they pass; there is no eye contact, no discussion or interaction with "live" people. They are making the global connections you are speaking of. However, this has really caused problems on campus as there is lack of empathy and connection to others on campus causing rising problems in vandalism, inappropriate behavior, and other social issues due to indifference towards others that aren't part of the group.
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Monday, 19 February 2007, 01:00 PM
  You're absolutely right. There are so many ways to 'connect'. One of the nicest i heard was in India where county folk can ring ( using a grameen bank funded village phone) & ask questions of their radio station, who google or whatever, and broadcast the answers. The point I'm making is that we stand in this half way house between one way (institutional and semantic media) and interactive (grouped and fixed) stuff. Unless we start thinking about building C and i (as in ICT) networks around working groups, their communities of interest - the outsiders - can never find them. They never get a feel for what the conversations are about, and find one which is interesting enough to rivet them to one spot for more than 10 secs.

They can never, as is the case in most supposedly interactive media, reach the mass to become sustainable, because they have no (social) online home where they can get their confidence up (apart from their personal space of course). To get what I'm saying yu have to think from an outsiders' perspective. I'm not saying yu or yur merry band should do much differently. I'm just saying that yu have to think about yur groupings by the conversations yu have, not the institutions in which yur group lives, give them a fixed spot in cyberspace, and bring yur libraries to the comms hub.

Think about it. That colleague of 4 years, who with one meeting yu began a wonderful (professional = interest) relationship. If anyone wanted to see the story of the global group(s) of people you had met, and introduced and developed, where would you go? There's no way you could see it. All you'll see is conference materials scattered, year by year, around different insitutional domains, and journals compiled on another, and a forum here, a blog and wiki there, and perhaps a video somewhere else. The web (2.0) is a vast unclassfied library of differently formatted domains.

I always draw the analogy of these global times and those when printing presses were making some impression on English society. It's a transition in publishing. At the same time it's a transition in communication, and convergence between the two. So if we want to connect the two kinds of networks (IP and PSTN), we'll need to be a bit more precise than just semantics. Otherwise our mobile centric friends won't be able to connect, and vice versa.
Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Virginia Yonkers - Monday, 19 February 2007, 04:07 PM
  I agree with you. So how do we go about making these connections? You suggest having a new categorization system that helps us identify connections, perhaps even based on the technology used. I guess I'm just not creative enough and don't have enough technological background to begin to think of what that system would look like.

However, your ideas does bring to mind that the way in which we identify ideas based on the categorization of traditional disciplines seems silly. I pull information for my research from the fields of English, IT, business, communication, history, medical education, psychology, education, management, marketing, and globalization. My sister, who is a speech pathologists, will be taking about something she has just read that helps her in her job, and I'll laugh, saying they have been doing this in ESL for years. Yet for speech pathologists this was cutting edge. The opposite will happen for techniques I might think are cutting edge. If these fields are doing the same thing, why aren't they interacting with each other?

So my question is what would be the basis of the new system?
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 12:47 PM
  Thanks Virginia. Now don't get humble on me. I'll leave your sister to do that, as my bruv does for me. I think yu meant to say though, "if these fields are thinking the same kinds of things, why aren't they interacting". If this is correct, then let me just drop this idea on you. We learn in small global groups. So (try and) forget the national/global institutions for just a minute.

All we are talking about, in the first instance, is how do we give subject specific groups a fixed spot in cyberspace, so communities of interest can find them and perhaps ask a question. We can't use our merry band as an example, because, for a group to be sustainable, it must relate to a practice (full of techniques). So let's use an obvious grouping - web designers and programmers. If we google web design community, we end up with quite an extensive list. Let's choose this one. And track down the group who run it. You can look around the environment and see from the top tool bar that they have most formats (blogs, videos, books, kits, etc, and a forum with around 2000 attendees, 24/7). Others, like wikis, tend to be hidden as they are used for private groups who are doing a particular project or development.

OK, so that's the kind of environment which makes this place 250 on Alexa's global top 500. Its sustainable through (if yu haven't noticed, argghh!) ads, kits and book sales, eTc. So that's what happens in the global .com space.

In the .edu space though we need a systematic way for each national group (as that's how they're funded) to connect to their global peers. They need to run their own national "sitepoints", and be able to connect (conference) at times (or permanently), and perhaps share their libraries rather than duplicating them. To do that we need to classify their nodes in the same manner in each country's .edu domain. My approach is to not invent wheels. Just adapt them. In the categorization space OCLC are a big monster with lots and lots of people who understand the Dewey Code. So when i read their blog, I see www.025.431.edu in the US space, and www.025.431.edu.au in Oz, and www.025.431.ac.uk, etc. We have a way to fix and connect the nodes, and direct people to their nearest pop.

As to why the professions don't interact. That's pretty easy to answer. What a stupid question! Don't you know anything? Please don't interrupt us with such silly questions. Can't yu see we're busy (in this case) classifying things? Why aren't you impressed? Can't you see how big our database is? We're too busy delivering to do any pick ups. It's enough to make one go buy a mobile phone, and ignore everything else.
Picture of George Siemens
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by George Siemens - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 05:26 PM
  Hi Simon - being late to the conversation, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying - "how do we give subject specific groups a fixed spot in cyberspace, so communities of interest can find them and perhaps ask a question."

I think, this approach is the opposite of what we are seeing happen (and what needs to happen in our very complex world). What we need is LESS centralization...and more abilities provided to individuals to centralize themselves. For example, in this conference, many appreciated the centralized moodle site. Others, however, blogged on their own spaces. That's great. We have tools like technorati and others to pull together the nodes that comprise a pattern. What we need is less forced centralization...and more "centralize it how you want it". The problem isn't in different ideas expressed in different spaces - the real problem is conceiving a way and model to bring together those ideas in a manner we personally desire. We are seeing this with dapper and yahoo pipes.
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Thursday, 22 February 2007, 09:03 AM
  Hi and thanks so much George,

Just going through your forum posts, so take for granted this takes in your comment (great to have a conference where a few weeks after things have ended, we can still dialogue) 6 hours later. I just wish we could have been having it since before you were down here for educationau's 'global summit', so we could start doing some connecting between some international global groups with similar interests.

The problem, as yu say, isn't "ideas expressed in different spaces", diversity rules OK. But if we achieve in finding a way to bring together ideas we personally desire, so what? Great for the ego but a "centralized individual" is about as useless as an isolated node. Less centralization? Absolutely. But a billion individual blogs all pumping out their personal ideas is a frightening proposition. Ideas without connections = zero knowledge.

Bright minds, like your own, can't exhaust themselves going round the world answering the same questions again and again, and then havng the remote conferences materials buried all over cyberspace. We gotta start using the tools. Connectivism is a great story (not a bad book either). In the abstract its great. And it's funny that I prefer global communities whereas yu prefer global networks because you're far more of an communitarian and I'm more a geek. But we both seem to want the same things. So would yu do me a favour? Have a read through these earlier posts, and give it some thought. If you can't see how the pipes and nodes might be reconfigured then I'm lost. I've got 90 days to rehash a patent which stands between an info-centric Yank and comms-centric Nipponese, so i could really use this community's feedback.

If we're ever going to see some tunnels between the institutional caves, and pathways between their remote global groups (and common communities), then we need some good web designers/programmers and some decent telco engineers, and a formula that helps them tweak the pipes so media - content and communication - can go back and forth between nodes, like AC rather than DC. After all, that's all that can pass between them.
Picture of Virginia Yonkers
The power of culture in knowledge
by Virginia Yonkers - Thursday, 22 February 2007, 10:04 AM
  Your post brings up an age old problem of international business. Structures that we take for granted, knowledge that we assume are universal, and communicating (even in the same language) is dependent on the individual, culture, and others in which there is interaction. (Honestly, it takes me a few read throughs, Simon to understand what you are saying, although it is worth the effort). Like you, I think there needs to be two-way direction and some way to monitor paths and patterns. While I use technology in all aspects of my life (I teach online, I use e-mail to stay connected to my family, friends, and colleagues, and I use a digital camera), I am by no means technology saavy (the idea makes my husband laugh as he is a computer programmer). However, what I am competent in is how to adapt any piece of technology to my own needs, how to choose appropriate technology that will interact with any situation (I do a lot of international work where there are different systems that may not even talk to each other), and how to learn any new technology that I am faced with. I may not be a technology expert, but I am an expert learner within any cultural venue.

So how do we create similar citizens like myself? Isn't that what the question is for connectivism as a learning theory? So I think there is more to it than the technology. Karyn's posting really makes sense to me, because she is looking at connectivism as a way of perceiving knowledge (which I think has always been there, but has never been available or stored as effectively as a permanent record before the age of the internet) that can be stored and accessed through various nodes (personal and technological?) when it is needed.

Even your previous posting, Simon, made assumptions that are not universal truths. In the US, many universities receive no government funding and are accredited by private organizations; my own university, a state university, only receives partial funding from the government. We are moving towards a commercial model for most programs in the US: knowledge that does not add to the commercial sector is not valuable (including education) so less funding is available or research agendas are dictated by "consumers" of knowledge (i.e. businesses, government). Having worked or studied at universities in Costa Rica, Hungary, Argentina, France, Switzerland, Russia, and Peru, I have seen the differences between what is considered valuable knowledge in different cultures. These present very serious problems, which when resolved, result in greater learning and more flexible institutional structures, but when undetected result in complete program failure.


Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: The power of culture in knowledge
by simon fenton-jones - Tuesday, 27 February 2007, 04:57 PM
  Just rereading this one, and it dropped that you were talking about "the power of culture". So the question you're asking is "how do we create learners who are capable of adapting to any culture?"

I think you're quite right. It is the question for any learning theory in a globalizing world; pieces of knowledege, and their value, are so different from one place to another. You asked, or at least you infer, that it needs to be a commercial model. I guess the thing I see is this. If funding is dictated by government and businesses, then the thing which influences their agendas is Media. And one thing we do know is that Media is attempting to change from a broadcasted push to an interactive pull.

The only thing that academia doesn't do is count the readership, or viewers. If you wanted to be commercial yo can charge advertising or sponsorships, as global schools do. But this should be, with Google's input (as one), a lot more capable of making pennies, if they thought like media people instead of teachers. The only thing missing then is the idea of building online environments for a bunch of different nationalities - teachers, students, employers. The idea is here, but where they talk about "building websites", people would be directed to something like takingitglobal an environment.

It may not be the best way to help people understand different cultures. But it would certainly help them understand how limited the one they live in is. Might even learn a language or two, which is the first step in connecting. Then the only huge cultural limitation to be overcome is the one which has teachers believing that, by lecturing, they inspire students to learn.
Picture of Alexander Hayes
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Alexander Hayes - Thursday, 1 March 2007, 04:39 AM
  Hi George ,

Being super-late in the dicussion I agree with your sentiments on needing groups to actually begin discussions. There seems to be a very value laden derivative in looking for a name of the group before the conversation actually starts - so edu.

So grant driven and so out of focus.

The keen word for me, Alex Hayes, is your use of the word 'desire'. How absolutely cool.

If we concentrated more on what we desired and less on what we detested then we'd realise that networks actually suck. The better one's are the one's that gave up calling themselves anything and concentrated more what they could actually contribute rather than control.

Damn.....I am late in the conversation.

smile
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Friday, 2 March 2007, 04:19 PM
  Hi Alex,

It's never too late.
I agree with you about "if we concentrated more on what we desired". That's why George's Connectivism is such an attraction. We all know that the institutional networks are stagnant and suck. The question is, what desires drive the new networks; on what basis are their remote groups connecting?. We can all talk about the theory forever. The only point i emphasize is that a new network's 'virtual org' (as some people talk about these things) needs to actually do something if it is to be sustainable.

When ever i have these discussions, people pop out of the woodwork (usually below the radar) and are so enthusiastic about some new kind of network. I hope yu dont mind Frederica, if i use you as an example (Right! Sometimes reading together works though: www.groundreport.com. Thanks for your response. Let's stay in touch.. Want to start building an international youth website with some teenagers. www.yebo.org YEBO! Youth Enjoying Better Options!) It's so inspiring, but i just can't see these ideas having legs unless groups in one network connect with groups in another. E'g. If I wanted to push Frederica's idea, which is just terrific, i'd say great, let's connect yebo's groups with those in one here. Just think of all your groups and the networks they have to span (no. of signons yu, or your computer, have to remember).

The problem we do have is that the Web is a huge unclassified library full of institutional websites and format orientated domains (blogs, wikis, utubes, etc). Even though the technology is there to put together any kind of virtual network, across the harder wired ones, a global group might want, the real trouble is how to connect the slices, so peers can find peers and get along to getting something done. And more importantly, is fixed enough, so the virtual networks, or grids as geeks call them, don't get lost in cyberspace after a particular project's funding runs out.

Depends what a global group may desire I guess. So it' s always helpful to have a vision. But then you have to have a directory. Otherwise all you do is search, and find peers who, like yourself, want to Connect.
Picture of Frederica-Azania Calre
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Frederica-Azania Calre - Friday, 2 March 2007, 05:21 PM
 

Hi SIMON!( How do you like to be called?)

Good to hear YOUR response on this one: "...Let's stay in touch.. Want to start building an international youth website with some teenagers. www.yebo.org YEBO! Youth Enjoying Better Options!)" -Azania

 "It's so inspiring, but i just can't see these ideas having legs unless groups in one network connect with groups in another. E'g. If I wanted to push Frederica's idea, which is just terrific, i'd say great, let's connect yebo's groups with those in one here. Just think of all your groups and the networks they have to span (no. of signons yu, or your computer, have to remember.) ...

The problem we do have is that the Web is a huge unclassified library full of institutional websites and format orientated domains (blogs, wikis, utubes, etc). Even though the technology is there to put together any kind of virtual network, across the harder wired ones, a global group might want, the real trouble is how to connect the slices, so peers can find peers and get along to getting something done. And more importantly, is fixed enough, so the virtual networks, or grids as geeks call them, don't get lost in cyberspace after a particular project's funding runs out.

Depends what a global group may desire I guess. So it' s always helpful to
have a vision. But then you have to have a directory. Otherwise all you do is search, and find peers who, like yourself, want to Connect." -"Simon"

REPLY FROM AZANIA:
I do know one teacher in upstate NY, whom I met through an online social networking tool... "BC..something???" Who knows??? She works with teens and is interested in working with youth from Kamenge, Burundi, Central Africa, where I do my online volunteer www.nabuur.com work, CHECK US OUT! 
Anyway...we need an "academic," and, youth oriented instrument for web 2.0 networking; ...and, the site www.yebo.org ( ...I have hosting.)  SO ... LET'S GO!
PLEASE, ALL...LET'S STAY IN TOUCH, ON THIS ONE, please.
Pax,
Frederica Azania Clare www.azania.org
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Tuesday, 6 March 2007, 01:07 PM
  OK, and thanks Frederica,

So long as we keep the conversation above the radar I can remember where i put you in my head, and keep track of our threads. Simon's fine. So you know where my roots are. Yu should know that this forum in Oz, although not terribly impressive, has a sister company owned by our state and federal ministers of education. So I've focussed on it as it's one step, and about the only one in our country, that might get serious about lifelong learning; at least as serious as Europeans are getting now.

nabuur.com is just wonderfully inspiring, and yebo times out for me. Let me say from the start that I just can't see any initiative having legs at the moment because of this habit of settin up another web site for some small demography or geography or group; not because the will and passion isn't there. (Just click on Virginia's name and see her interests as one example). It's simply that we don't have a classification system (directories) for these online books, magazines, brochures and dictionaries (web sites, utubes, blogs and wikipedias) just yet.

The last thing I think we need is an "academic instrument" because the instruments academics have, and the routines they employ, while terrific for providing for the pre web world, are too limited for the next generation. Like (forgive me) George, the more energetic ones bounce around professional worlds giving lectures, and will do everything to advance an inspiring message but follow their own advice. They simply will not connect, above the radar, in one place, regularly.

I can't blame them, most (certainly the energetic ones) are overloaded by the info like everyone, and they attract people out of the woodwork full of interest and energy so they are doubly overwhelmed. So the reaction to someone like me, prior to George's trip down here, asking him to converse with some people he would be lecturing to, at the edna groups' forum, and have a pre, during, and post conference in a place like this, and start linking them so global groups coud start synching their learning, just never gets a start up. The chapters of an interesting digital story get buried in institutional web sites and lie scattered around cyberspace. Just samo, samo, repeated ad (academic) infintum, due to an inability to shake the old (physical) routines and media structures.

Enough. Thanks for letting me get this of my chest. I have roots which I have put down in three (country domainal) forums. The relative ones for this conversation are here (.ca), edna (.au) and labspace (.uk). Labspace is the one with most potential as, although very new, it's UK's Open Uni's development area for moodle stuff like this. And 2m students/year give an .edu org a good grounding in distance learning. If you (or anyone) have a (preferably moodle based, although it's not that important) forum in other countries that you inhabit regularly, please let me know. I'd really like to try and start connecting the dots, or 'slicing between nodes' if you are a bit geekish (like me).
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Saturday, 10 March 2007, 03:05 PM
  Frederica,

Please, above the radar. In reply to your 8th march email.
Hi Simon.
Glad you are interested in building www.yebo.org.
Of coruse I am not a geek. I trust your judgement.
What kind of free platforms, wiithin the web, should we try then, for the kids?How's this, for one: http://thinkature.com/home/ ?
Pax,Azania

I
'm not sure what you are trying to acheive, so it's impossible to give you an opinion on where to start. I'd need some idea of your target audience's demographic, usual bandwidth, interests, etc.

If they're a little older, and they have an interest, like yourself, in doing more than having an academic chat, (i.e helping developing countries) you might find this one a good starting point. It's home is in Canada, but they've spread well since seeding from the world bank quite a few years ago. You'll find a bunch of people who range from youngsters to reps at the World Bank, and other UN agencies.

I'd suggest you see if it's not too slow at your end. Their grid, the connections between their global nodes, is a bit 'lumpy'; sometimes fast, sometimes slow. There's an aweful lot in it. If you do as i tend to; give it one hour every 3 days to get a feel for the environment. It'll take about 2 weeks (my normal) to feel at home, and see who might help you advance your ideas. I haven't been around there for a few years, since it started, but it's one of the best for connections in this realm of interest.

Do us a favour. I can't see this forum being of much use as a place to put some Canadian roots. Would you, when you make yourself at home ay TIG, come over to this forum and tell my Aussie community what you're up to. As I said before, I'm more than happy to help if I can, but i do need to keep my conversations above the radar, due to my lousy memory. Cheers.

Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Virginia Yonkers - Tuesday, 13 March 2007, 02:55 PM
 

I posted this somewhere yesterday, I can't find it now, so I am posting again. I apologize if you have read it before!


Okay, so after thinking of the conference and the posts over the last two weeks this is what I have come up with:

The idea of simply connecting through networks seems too simplistic. I think there needs to be more depth to this idea of network. I see there being three levels of connectivism. The first level is the network. Embedded in this network is knowledge that a person connects to as they need it. The level of relationship (trust, affinity) is low with the level of communication tending to be one-way, with lurkers within a network that others are unaware of, and lack of interdependency. At some point, however, a community is developed. This community connects on a social as well as cognitive level. The community also begins to establish which knowledge is important to function within that community and there begins to be more group processing of the “community” knowledge in order to access the group knowledge that are within community members’ networks. The community is dynamic, but more permanent than a network, which could be a one time link. The final level is a system. The system always those within the system access to knowledge through connection with others within the system. However, the system also can block knowledge and information from coming in or going out of the system. The system would require a high level of interdependence among those within the system. There would also be a much more two way communication and an awareness of who is within and outside of the system. 

So as an example, I would say that the conference was an example of networks, the follow-up discussions, especially those that have gone beyond the conference period, are the beginning of communities, and the university in which I work is an example of one of the systems to which I belong (as is the international development community in which I worked previously). The difference between networks and systems is that networks fall apart when it looses a “node”. A system will continue to function regardless of the individuals that are part of it.

In terms of education, I think most educators focus on teaching students networking so that students can then move into communities of practice that will turn into systems. Unfortunately, most educators are stuck in their own systems and rarely extend them (which means having to create new networks, then becoming comfortable working in a new community with different social norms). This means students are may be limited in getting to the level of creating their own systems because they are stuck in the superficiality and transient network level. This is the aspect that scares me, because without the interdependency, knowledge will be lost and will be one dimensional (still embedded in the network without the knowledge of how to access and use it). On the other hand, if we can begin to categorize systems, communities, and networks, we can cross boarders, institutions, and create deeper levels of knowledge by determining ways to access the knowledge embedded in the various levels. Perhaps we should be studying how these systems evolve and work.

Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Stephen Downes - Wednesday, 14 March 2007, 04:12 PM
  I think this is a very interesting post.

Yonkers writes, "I think most educators focus on teaching students networking so that students can then move into communities of practice that will turn into systems."

Except... they don't.

"
Most educators are stuck in their own systems." Quite right. And that's where they try to put the students. Without all this networking nonsense at the front end.

I look at the sequence described - networks -> community -> system - and what I see is something that works breaking down into something that doesn't. I see an effective decision-making mechanism being subverted and employed in the service of a minority, usually to the detriment of the whole.

Yonkers writes, "At some point, however, a community is developed. This community connects on a social as well as cognitive level." I would write "emotional" rather than "social", but it's close enough.

"
The community also begins to establish which knowledge is important to function within that community and there begins to be more group processing of the “community” knowledge in order to access the group knowledge that are within community members’ networks."

No. This is a fallacy.

'The community' is not an agent. It does not have an independent existence (not even if we create fictions of such existence, such as the declaration that a 'corporation is a person').

Only individuals in a community have agency. Which means that we need to look very closely at what happens when someone says "the community
begins to establish which knowledge is important." What this means is that some few members of the community undertake this action, and are then in some way able to impose this as a directive on the community as a whole.

We need to distinguish between two senses if 'becomes important' here:

1. The sense in which the phrase is descriptive, an emergent phenomenon, that we are able to identify after the fact, and

2. The sense in which th phrase is normative, an individual action, which becomes definitive of membership or good conduct in the community.

The first is very easily established via a network. But the second requires a somewhat more cohesive and restrictive organization, which requires an injunction on individual freedom of action.

When somebody says a network "isn't sufficient" I always look to see what it is that the network is deemed to be insufficient for. And on analysis, it is always some stipulation - some custom, value, belief or law - that one person wants to impose on another.

To my mind, the only impositions that can be justified are those that are necessary to counteract other attempts to impose one person's will over another, those, in other words, that preserve autonomy, diversity, openness and interaction.





Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Virginia Yonkers - Wednesday, 14 March 2007, 07:12 PM
  Let me make some clarifications on this:

1. "I think most educators focus on teaching students networking so that students can then move into communities of practice that will turn into systems."

Except... they don't.

I should have said, "educators SHOULD focus on teaching students networking so that students can then move into communities of practice that will turn into systems." I agree that many don't because they are caught up in their own "systems" unwilling to create new networks.

2. I used "social" instead of "emotional" because I wanted to emphasize the relational and, yes, normative pressures that come in being part of a community. While it would be nice to think that everyone is an individual working alone with free will, the fact is that we are socialized from infancy in a certain culture. Many times, we are not even aware of the socialization process as we are educated using the cultural, educational, and community norms. An individual can choose to except or reject those norms and we can make our students aware of those norms (hegemony), but the fact is we all have a cultural base to work from. Personally, I see "systems" as cultures (School, organizational, family, community, national, linguistic) that set the rules for what constitutes knowledge, how to communicate, and what appropriate behavior is. I find that as I move into new technologies, I have to feel my way into what is appropriate or the best way to interact with others using that technology. I am currently doing this with blogs. There is a good account of this phenomena for Ebay in Silicon literacies (Ilana Snyder, 2002, Routledge).

3. The reason I feel there is more to this theory than the network is because while I believe there is the individual knowledge, I also feel that there is "group knowledge" that is outside of the individual (although the individual may be aware of it). I have been doing a lot of research on group communication and knowledge recently. I am convinced that there are at least two levels of "knowledge" in any group, the one that the group as a whole has constructed and the one the individual has constructed. Both exist simultaneously in an individual and a group, but the uses and access is dependent upon the situation. I may compromise on what the group"knows", although as an individual, I have a different understanding. Through the negotiation of understanding within the group, I come aware with my own reality, although I am aware of what the group's reality is.


Picture of George Siemens
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by George Siemens - Wednesday, 14 March 2007, 07:42 PM
 

Hi Virginia, nice to see that you are still fighting the good fight smile.

I don't doubt that connectivism can be tiered. My concern is that networks - and thereby connectivism - tier differently than traditional structures. I suggested a taxonomy a year or two ago - but a taxonomy is too reflective of a hierarchical mindset...To evaluate networks requires an emphasis on network effectiveness - i.e. what does the network do? What is it intended to do? So even our metric of tiering connectivism is one that includes partial acknowledgement of the context in which the networks themselves occur. When context changes, the tiered structure changes. As with complex systems, the outcome is unknown at initiation. Similarly, I think pre-defined or templated categorization (which I admit aid in enabling comparing and contrasting - the demarcation of elements that is so important in cognition) fails to fully account for the myriad shapes and patterns the situation and thereby accompanying connections generate. The rule-based models that work well in more static environments need to give way to sense/probe/evaluate models that first account for context and network at time of consideration, and then enable comparisons of suitable effectiveness or valid distinctions between different elements or forms.

In my eyes, communities are essentially network forming spaces...or networks with established, transparent, and solidified relationships. We join community for numerous reasons - emotional (sense of belonging), cognitive (to learn from and with others), functional (to connect with others in order to advance our careers), and so on. The prevalence of connections and networks - from webs of diseases, to transport systems, to citations, to sexual contacts, to social contacts, to political connections, to corporate board governance - blinds us to their power. The primary basis of meaningful interaction and value is a connection. Nodes and connections are the DNA of our society - but we have looked at their impact in our research, theories, and philosophies, and largely ignored their foundational presence. In a learning sense, those who adhere to constructive views of knowledge must first acknowledge a connection of some sort - between the individual constructing and the information used in the construction...or between the learner and the one fostering the constructive space (i.e. the teacher). Extended, the socialization of knowledge is a similar node/connection relationship - influenced and augmented by the rich interplay of dialogue, perspective, and context. I think we miss seeing the complexity of networks because their basic components are so simple.

In terms of networks falling apart when nodes leave - the internet refutes that assertion. The internet (not web) was created as a network so no single node could bring down the entire structure. The distributed architecture allows it to scale in complexity, and be largely failure resistant (though recent concerns of 13 rootname servers as being a weak point in the web - simply because control is too centralized - more nodes are needed to ensure survivability of a significant attack).

I'm a bit unclear in your use of systems. I've described ecologies as the spaces in which networks occur. In an organization, the ecology present determines how easy it is for networks to form. Consider the world of academic publishing - our current ecology/climate of closed access to publicly funded research inhibits the formation of networks between researches and ideas. The ecology of knowledge is influenced by many factors - government, corporate, patents, lawsuits, DRM, copyright, etc. If this is what you mean with system, I would suggest that the system itself is not an aspect of connectivism...but that the system/ecology determines the health and ease of connection formation available to all nodes within the ecology (from the individual to the wider corporate representation).

Picture of Virginia Yonkers
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Virginia Yonkers - Thursday, 15 March 2007, 09:20 AM
  As my class is currently discussing the conference and I am working through similar ideas on my dissertation, these ideas are very fresh in my mind! I appreciate the opportunity to throw these ideas around with others outside my personal sphere.

First, I like your definition of community. This comes closest to any that I have seen to my own definition.

Your definition of network, however, is what I would consider a system. Systems are complex and dynamic, but there is some residue left when an individual leaves. I look at the internet as a system, always changing, yet with some complex interdependency that allows individuals to leave without the whole system falling apart (although if enough leave than all that is left is a shell and archaeological evidence of the system).

A network, on the other hand, I perceive as something more superficial. In Marketing we would call it skimming. My perception of networks is that an individual creates connections to access the information from the systems. I guess I perceive the focus on networks as individual. An individual is conscious of what they want to get out of the connection, will look for that, and if it is not there, they will move on. The paths they use are the networks. The system may not know of its influence on the individual and is not focussed on the individuals that make it up, that skim through it, or become members of it until enough members of the system feel the impact of new members and the changes that it requires in its architecture. The system on the other hand has a deep level of interdependence. They may restrict membership as the level of interdependence becomes deeper (socially, legally, technologically, culturally, etc...). They system may also be connected through individual networks to other systems (this conference for example connecting through individual blogs). The ecology can influence either the network or the system. I don't see this as a linear relationship, but rather different "levels" or depths of interaction and connectiveness.

An example of a network would be my student's participation in this conference. I was not even aware of how they had connected and networked from the conference until they started their discussions this week. The conference, on the other hand, was attached to the university of Manitoba system and the system that appears to have been developed through various face to face conferences, e-books, and blogs over the last few years. Whether my students participated or not (as individuals) was of little relevance to this system, however, the collective level of participation, the members of the system already in place, and the set up of the conference are all examples of the level of interdependency that suggests there is a system.

I think as educators, we need to make our students aware of the systems, learn how a system functions, and teach them how to be part of multiple systems for life long learning and professional success. We also need to make them aware of how to network to find those systems that would be the greatest use and/or to improve or change a stagnant or closed system (as much as we would like, systems are dynamic and will always change, even when they are closed). Finally, we need to give students the tools to mediate and access information embedded in systems and networks, mediate and negotiate understanding of what that information means, and have an understanding and awareness of where they are in a network and system.
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Friday, 16 March 2007, 01:52 PM
  Dear Jacinta,

I have to start my reply to your discussion about definitions of community, network and system with one of my favs from AN Whitehead.
"In the Garden of Eden Adam saw the animals before he named them: in the traditional (school) system, children named the animals before they saw them". I find it's easier to progress a conversation if I understand and share someone's philosophy; the words we use to clarify it being incidental.

The Internet is simply, in my mind, a general term for a bunch of networks that share a layer called Internet Protocol. The systems you talk about, quite rightly, are the routines of institutions; the name having so many interpretations. The routines of institutions are so varied - so many unspoken values are attached to them. The routines of university, for example, will value conferences, white papers, peer review, global research, as opposed to the emphasis on set classes, constant lectures, exams and personal development in schools. You would probably call them two systems of education, while I'd call them institutions as they are never 'hard wired'. They can change in an instant as the value ascribed to routines rise and fall.

The problem of finding balance between any two institutions, as you've found out with these two, are that students "have connected and networked (from the conference)". They already have a sense of community which began with their common interest in the subjects covered by a Uni. So we can see that the old institution, of their lecturers being a step ahead, is a furphy. We are watching a new institution with its new routines and values struggling to work it's way out of the irrelevant routines of old institutions; like those of the university 'system'.

I can only agree with you about "make our students aware of the systems, learn how a system functions". A teacher's role is always about helping learners to learn. Most of the time these days they are learning (like us) the old institutions are pretty well irrelevant. Lifelong learning is the only mantra that counts now that "serial regurgutation" has proved almost entirely useless in a post industrial world.

Your last sentence is fascinating. "we need to give students the tools", say you and i on a university moodle, which hasn't even the basic navigational elements of a learning environment. "to mediate and access information embedded in systems and networks" says you after finding out your students have already picked the conference info up. "mediate and negotiate understanding of what that information means", or what we think it means, and through our own intellectual rigour, impart good habits and (hopefully) truths.

"have an understanding and awareness of where they are in a network and system" . Definitely, although i think this is where the use of the name system (as opposed to institution) is a danger. 'System', by definition, means so many things; the greatest confusion being created by the difference between "an arrangement of things" and "an arrangement of principles". You might think you're pointing at a taxonomy but the uneducated might interpret what you mean as something which can never change.

Looking at the habit of very bright minds and eloquent lecturers running around the world to attend conferences, never linking between them, and always working furiously to "wrap up" with a report or peer reviewed paper, while never counting the regos or viewers of their community's media; Hmmm, maybe you're right.
Picture of Karyn Romeis
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Karyn Romeis - Tuesday, 20 February 2007, 05:24 AM
  Of course people have connected with people since time out of mind. What's new here is the inclusion of technological nodes in the network.

One of the key points about connectivism (in my understanding) is to do with the fact that the body of knowledge on any subject is (a) too large to fit in anyone's head and (b) too impermanent to make it worth commiting to memory. So the connected network often includes nodes that store data that can be updated on a regular basis - like your hard drive, or your organisation's intranet, or wikipedia, or Google. In Simon's story above, the people were contacting a radio station, where their answers were being looked up online. People+people+technology.
Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Stephen Downes - Tuesday, 20 February 2007, 07:48 AM
  (One of the things I really dislike about Moodle is that I have to use the qwebsite to reply to a post - I get it in my email, I'd rather just reply in my email.) Anyhow...

It occurs to me on reading this that the assembly line can and should be considered a primitive form of connectivism. It embodies the knowledge required to build a complex piece of machinery, like a car. No individual member of the assembly line knows everything about the product. And it is based on a mechanism of communication, partially symbolic (through instructions and messages) and partially mechanical (as the cars move through the line).

The assembly line, of course, does not have some very important properties of connectivist networks, which means that it cannot adapt and learn. In particular, its constituent members are not autonomous. So members cannot choose to improve their component parts. And also, assembly line members must therefore rely on direction, increasing the risk they they will be given bad instructions (hence: the repeated failures of Chrysler). Also, they are not open (though Japanese processes did increase the openness of suppliers a bit).

It is important to keep in mind, in general, that not just any network, and not just any distributed knowledge, qualifies as connectivist knowledge. The radio station example in particular troubles me. It is far too centralized and controlled. In a similar manner, your hard drive doesn't create an instance of connective knowledge. Yes, you store some information there. But your hard drive is not autonomous, it cannot opt to connect with other sources of knowledge, it cannot work without direction. It doesn't add value - and this is key in connectivist networks.

Picture of Jeffrey Keefer
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Jeffrey Keefer - Tuesday, 20 February 2007, 02:43 PM
  Stephen, when you said "But your hard drive is not autonomous, it cannot opt to connect with other sources of knowledge, it cannot work without direction. It doesn't add value - and this is key in connectivist networks," you seem to be speaking about people who have the freedom to act independently toward a goal, which is something that those on the assmbly line in your earlier example are not necessarily free or encouraged to do. If they are directed and not free, it seems that they are more like independent pieces of knowledge or skills, that strategically placed together makes something else. If that can be considered connectivism, then what social human endeavor (from assembling food at a fast food restaurant to preparing a team-based class project to conducting a complex surgical procedure) would not be connectivistic?
Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Stephen Downes - Tuesday, 20 February 2007, 06:54 PM
  Yeah, I was thinking that as I ended the post but didn't want to go back and rewrite the first paragraph.

Insofar as connectivism can be defined as a set of features of successful networks (as I would assert) then it seems clear that things can be more or less connectivist. That it's not an off-on proposition.

An assembly line, a fast-food restaurant -- these may be connectivist, but just barely. Hardly at all. Because not having the autonomy really weakens them; the people may as well be drones, like your hard drive. Not much to learn in a fast food restaurant.

One of the things to always keep in mind is that connectivism shows that there is a point to things like diversity, autonomy, and the the other elements of democracy. That these are values because networks that embody them are more reliable, more stable, can be trusted. More likely to lead, if you will, to truth.



Picture of Karyn Romeis
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Karyn Romeis - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 03:28 AM
  Stephen - as you may know if I have become a sufficiently visbile blip on your radar - I have enormous regard for you, and, as I nibble around the peripheries of things, I am usually in awe of the depth at which you are confident. Consequently, I accept your correction on the matter of the hard drive as a node in the connective network: while it adds capacity, it doesn't add value. Fair enough. What I really am struggling with is this: "The radio station example in particular troubles me. It is far too centralized and controlled." Please, please tell me that you did not just say "Let them eat cake".

I presume that the people who make those calls to the radio station do so because they have no means of connecting directly to the electronic resources themselves. Perhaps they do not even have access to electricity. In the light of this, they might be expected to remain ignorant of the resources available to them. However, they have made use of such technology as is available to them (the telephone) to plug into the network indirectly. They might not be very sophisticated nodes within the network, but they are there, surely? It might be clunky, but under the circumstances, it's what they have: connection to people who have connection to technology. Otherwise we're saying that only first world people with direct access to a network and/or the internet can aspire to connectivism. Surely there is space for a variety of networks?

I'm struggling here!
Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Stephen Downes - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 06:07 AM
  What concerns me about the use of radio stations is the element of control. It is no doubt a simple fact that there are things listeners cannot ask about via the radio method. And because radio is subject to centralized control, it can be misused. What is described here is not a misuse of radio - it actually sounds like a very enlightened use of radio. But we have seen radio very badly misused, in Rwanda, for example.

You write, "Otherwise we're saying that only first world people with direct access to a network and/or the internet can aspire to connectivism. Surely there is space for a variety of networks?" I draw the connection between connectivism and democracy very deliberately, as in my mind the properties of the one are the properties of the other. So my response to the question is that connectivism is available to everyone, but in the way that democracy is available to everyone. And what that means is that, in practice, some people do not have access to connectivist networks. My observation of this fact is not an endorsement.

Yes, there is a space for a variety of networks. In fact, this discussion raises an interesting possibility. Thus far, the networks we have been talking about, such as the human neural network in the brain, or the electronic network that forms the internet, are physical networks. The structure of the network is embodied in the physical medium. But the radio network, as described above, may be depicted as a network. The physical medium - telephone calls and a radio station - are not inherently
a network, but they are being used as a network.

Virtual networks allow us to emulate the functioning of, and hence get the benefit of, a network. But because the continued functioning of the network depends on some very non-network conditions (the benevolence of the radio station owner, for example) it should be understood that such structures can very rapidly become non-networks.

I would like also in this context to raise another consideration. That is related to the size of the network. In the radio station example described, at best only a few hundred people participate directly. This is, in the nature of things, a very small network. The size of the network does matter, as various properties - diversity, for example - increase through size increases. As we can easily see, a network consisting of two people cannot embody as much knowledge as a network consisting of two thousand people, much less two million people.

In light of this, I would want to say that the radio station example, at best, is not the creation of a network, but rather, the creation of an extension of the network. If the people at the radio station could not look up the answers on Google, the effectiveness of the call-in service would be very different. So it seems clear here that physical networks can be extended using virtual networks.

This is somewhat like what George means when he says that he stores some of his knowledge in other people (though it is less clear to me that he intends it this way). His knowledge is stored in a physical network, his neural net, aka his brain. By accessing things like the internet, he is able to expand th capacity of his brain - the internet becomes a virtual extension of the physical neural network.

Note that this is not the same as saying that the social network, composed of interconnected people, is the same as the neural network. They are two very different networks. But because they have the same structure, a part of one may act as a virtual extension of the other.

This, actually, resembles what McLuhan has to say about communications media. That these media are extensions of our capacities, extensions of our voices and extensions of our senses. We use a telescope to see what we could not see, we use a radio to hear what we could not hear. Thought of collectively, we can use these media to extend our thought processes themselves. By functioning as though it were a brain, part of the wider world, virtually, becomes part of our brain.


Picture of Rita Kop
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Rita Kop - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 07:55 AM
  In principle you are right in this, but in practice online networks will only contain members of the population with access to the Internet. In Wales about 50% of the population is not online and about half of this number does not see any relevance of technology to their lives. (Mainly coming from lower socio-economic groups and older people). This has major consequences when you start talking about diversity of networks. What you hear from the network is a message heavily influenced by the views and knowledge of heavy Net users, who are interested in spending quite some time writing on line. It excludes many views! Should we work harder to include the non-believers and the excluded?
Picture of Glen Gatin
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Glen Gatin - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 08:31 AM
  A couple of points occurred to me when I read this thread to this point.

Jurgen Habermas talks about communicative action in the public sphere as an essential component of democracy. I see the process that we are using( and discussing) as a form of communicative action and discussion groups such as this are exemplars of the activity that Habermas championed. I hope someone more versed in sociological theory can clarify because it seems that some of the conditions that got Jurgen thinking are coming around again. (excellent Habemas interview video on YouTube)

The other point picks up on Stephens comment about George' comment regarding storing knowledge or data in other people. Societies have always done that, from the guys that memorize entire holy texts, elders/hunters/ warriors in various societies as repositories of specialized wisdom.
Society relies on implicit skills and knowledge, the kind that can't be written down. Julian Orr's fabulous thesis "Talking About Machines, An Ethnography of a Modern Job" describes the types of knowledge that can't be documented, must be stored in other people. He points out that you can read the company manual but knowledge doesn't come until coffee time (or the bar after work) when one of the old timers tells you what it really means. Narrative processes are key. Developing the appropriate, context- based skill sets for listening to the stories, to extract the wheat from the chaff, is a critical operation in informal learning.
Storing knowledge is what Academia was partly about, storing the wisdom of western civilization in the minds of societies intellectuals and paying considerable amounts of public monies to have them process and extended our collective knowledge.
All through, there are examples of the mechanisms necessary to to access and participate in collective wisdom. You have to know the code, speak the language, use the proper forms of address, make the proper sacrifices, say the proper prayers, use APA format, enter the proper username and password. The internet expands the possibilities of this function as humans evolve toward a collective consciousness ala Teilhard de Chardin's noosphere. Welcome to Gaia.
Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Stephen Downes - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 10:08 AM
  "Narrative processes are key. Developing the appropriate, context- based skill sets for listening to the stories, to extract the wheat from the chaff, is a critical operation in informal learning."

"You have to know the code, speak the language, use the proper forms of address, make the proper sacrifices, say the proper prayers, use APA format, enter the proper username and password. The internet expands the possibilities of this function as humans evolve toward a collective consciousness ala Teilhard de Chardin's noosphere. Welcome to Gaia."

No.

No no no no no.

This is exactly what I don't mean.

No time now but I didn't want to leave this unnoted.
Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Stephen Downes - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 01:14 PM
  OK, now I have some time. Sorry about the reaction. But...

First, a lot of people have talked about the importance of discourse in democracy. We can think of Tocqueville, for example, discussing democracy in America. The protections of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly emphasize its importance.

And so, Habermas and I agree in the sense that we both support the sorts of conditions that would enable an enlightened discourse. openness and the ability to say whatever you want, for example. But from there we part company.

For Habermas, the discourse is what produces the knowledge, the process of arguing back and forth. Knowledge-production (and Habermas intended this process to produce moral universals) is therefore a product of our use of language. It is intentional. We build or construct (or, at least, find) these truths.

I don't believe anything like this (maybe George does, in which case we could argue over whether it constitutes a part of connectivism ;) ). It is the mere process of communication, whether codified intentionally in a language of discourse or not, that creates knowledge. And the knowledge isn't somehow codified in the discourse, rather, it is emergent, it is, if you will, above the discourse.

Also, for Habermas, there must be some commonality of purpose, some sense of sharing or group identity. There are specific 'discourse ethics'. We need to free ourselves from our particular points of view. We need to evaluate propositions from a common perspective. All this to arrive at some sort of shared understanding.

Again, all this forms no part of what I think of connectivism. What makes the network work is diversity. We need to keep our individual prejudices and interests. We should certainly not subsume ourselves to the interests of the groups. If there are rules of arguing, they are arrived at only by mutual consent, and are in any case arbitrary and capricious, as likely as not to be jettisoned at any time. And if there is an emergent 'moral truth' that arises out of these interactions, it is in no way embodied in these interactions, and is indeed seen from a different perspective from each of the participants.

Now, also, "The other point picks up on Stephens comment about George' comment regarding storing knowledge or data in other people. Societies have always done that, from the guys that memorize entire holy texts, elders/hunters/ warriors in various societies as repositories of specialized wisdom."

This sort of discourse suggests that there is an (autonomous?) entity, 'society', that uses something (distinct from itself?), an elder, say, to store part of its memory. As though this elder is in some sense what I characterized as a virtual extension of a society.

But of course, the elder in question is a physical part of the society. The physical contituents of society just are people ("Society green.... It's made of people!!") in the same way that the physical constituents of a brain network are individual neurons. So an elder who memorizes texts is not an extension of society, he or she is a part of society. He or she isn't 'used' by society to think, he or she is 'society thinking'. (It's like the difference between saying "I use my neurons to think" and "my neurons think").

Again, "Society relies on implicit skills and knowledge, the kind that can't be written down. Julian Orr's fabulous thesis "Talking About Machines, An EthnograpGranovetterhy of a Modern Job" describes the types of knowledge that can't be documented, must be stored in other people."

This seems to imply that there is some entity, 'society', that is distinct from the people who make up that entity. But there is not. We are society. Society doesn't 'store knowledge in people', it stores knowledge in itself (and where else would it store knowledge?).

That's why this is just wrong: "the mechanisms necessary to to access and participate in collective wisdom. You have to know the code, speak the language, use the proper forms of address, make the proper sacrifices, say the proper prayers, use APA format, enter the proper username and password. The internet expands the possibilities of this function as humans evolve toward a collective consciousness ala Teilhard de Chardin's noosphere. Welcome to Gaia."

There are no mechanisms 'necessary' in order to access and participate in the collective wisdom. You connect how you connect. Some people (such as myself) access via writing posts. Other people (such as George) access via writing books. Other people (such as Clifford Olsen) access via mass murder. Now George and I (and the rest of us) don't like what Clifford Olsen did. But the very fact that we can refer to him proves that you can break every standard of civilized society and still be a part of the communicative network. Because networks are open.

A network isn't like some kind of club. No girls allowed. There's no code, language, proper form of address, format, username or password. These are things that characterize groups. The pervasive use of these things actually breaks the network. How, for example, can we think outside the domains of groupthink if we're restricted by vocabulary or format?

The network (or, as I would say, I well-functioning network) is exactly the rejection of codes and language, proper forms of address, formats, usernames and passwords. I have a tenuous connection (as Granovetter would say, 'weak ties') with other members of the network, formed on the flimsiest of pretexts, which may be based on some voluntary protocols. That's it.

From the perspective of the network, at least, nothing more wanted or desired (from our perspective as humans, there is an emotional need for strong ties and a sense of belonging as well, but this need is distinct and not a part of the knowledge-generating process).

To the extent that there is or will be a collective consciousness (and we may well be billions of entities short of a brain) there is no reason to suspect that it will resemble human consciousness and no reason to believe that such a collective consciousness will have any say (or interest) in the functioning of its entities. Do you stay awake at night wondering about the moral turpitude if each of your ten billion neurons? Do you even care (beyond massive numbers) whether they live or die?

Insofar as a morality can be derived from the functioning of the network, it is not that the network as a whole will deliver unto us some universal moral code. We're still stuck each fending for ourselves; no such code will be forthcoming.

At best, what the functioning of the network tells us about morality is that it defines that set of characteristics that help or hinder its functioning as a network. But you're still free to opt out; there's no moral imperative that forces you to help Gaia (there's no meaning of life otherwise, though, so you may as well - just go into it with your eyes opem, this is a choice, not a condition). be, it might be said, the best neuron you can be, even though the brain won't tell you how and doesn't care whether or not you are.

This is what characterizes the real cleave between myself and many (if not most) of these other theorists. They all seem to want to place the burden of learning, of meaning, if morality, of whatever, into society. As though society cares. As though society has an interest. As though society could express itself. The 'general will', as Rousseau characterized it, as though there could be some sort of human representation or instantiation of that will. We don't even know what society thinks (if anything) about what it is (again - ask yourself - how much does a single neuron know about Descartes?). Our very best guesses are just that -- and they are ineliminably representations in human terms of very non human phenomena.

Recall Nietzsche. The first thing the superman would do would be to eschew the so-called morality of society. Because he, after all, would have a much better view of what is essentially unknowable. The ease with we can switch from saying society requires something to saying society requires a different things demonstrates the extent to which our interpretations of what society has to say depend much more on what we are looking for than what is actually there.







Picture of Deirdre Bonnycastle
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Deirdre Bonnycastle - Thursday, 22 February 2007, 09:54 AM
  I think Stephen has a good point here about connectivism. Lots of people make connections without necessarily participating in a two-way discourse. I recieve hundreds of emails a day from groups like this. I read, think about far more than I respond to. I access hundreds of websites and blogs every year for information and rarely leave comments or contact the site owners. Some connections are ends, some branch. 
Picture of George Siemens
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by George Siemens - Thursday, 22 February 2007, 02:44 PM
  Hi Deirdre - how we relate to others changes with technology. Like you say, you read far more than you respond to. I posted this earlier in the conference, but the notion of "dialogue of awareness" not necessarily direct engagement is important in conceptualizing how we dialogue today.
Picture of Raymond Guy
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Raymond Guy - Friday, 23 February 2007, 08:47 AM
 

Bonjour!

I've been reading this thread with great interest.  What I pull from the initial direction Virginia and Peter discuss is the definition around the group and node definitions.  What I understand from the discussions and presentations, is that we as individuals or groups form nodes of relative importance in the connected network.

I speak of relative importance as this is a value we attribute based on our interests, values and priorities which relate to the morals that Stephen refers to. 

I see the value of each node also defined by the role and needs it satisfies.  I think back to the classification presented in Malcom Gladwell's Blink, where there are mavens, connectors and salesmen.  This influences our choices in the way we select to connect to each node in the network. How would we fit the way we perceive each of us in these roles within nodes and the role of each node to our practice and network? 

Ray

Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Thursday, 22 February 2007, 11:32 AM
  Hi Stephen,

I hope you can help me with this cause the only way that I can understand what you might mean by networks is that it's a personal thing. You say "A network isn't like some kind of club. No girls allowed. There's no code, language, proper form of address, format, username or password. These are things that characterize groups. The pervasive use of these things actually breaks the network. How, for example, can we think outside the domains of groupthink if we're restricted by vocabulary or format?"

To me, as I surf around a lot of network's domains, and lurk aound their forums, learning their group's jargon, code and meaning, sometimes I register with a password. As i have done here. So it's easy to think outside the group think. But without understanding the that vocab around here is very different than if i was talking to the guys/girls at say webjunction, who talk about very similar things although in a different way, we wouldn't be able to communicate. Even moreso if I was to use Spanish.

Prior on you say "There are no mechanisms 'necessary' in order to access and participate in the collective wisdom. You connect how you connect. Yet the connections you are talking about are based on the format of media a person might prefer, and whether one prefers to be active or interactive. Until you get to the example of Olsen, where you're telling us "murder is part of the communicative network". But knowledge of it is why we lock murderers away. To "participate in the collective wisdom", means it's open but we must have some (moral) boundaries. It's also hard making mechanisms as intuitive as possible; navigation having so many logical forms, depending on it's Science.

You finish, "networks are open". This kind of blows me away, getting back to what Glen was saying earlier, about democracy being enhanced by interactive group spaces like this. You see, I think they are. But the ones in the .gov domain are usually closed while the .edu ones are (so)slowly opening (to one another). Intranet means closed network. And while the inhabitants of one are making policy, the other is making curricula, although two processes are almost indistinguishable. Either way, if a democracy is to work we have to classify things into compartments, and give them a memory. Call them agencies or institutions or universities or libraries. They all have their separate networks and domains. Regardless, these days they're all globalizing. The noticeable thing is those which do the most self promotion do the least inter-connecting. I guess they just don't get Connectivism.

OK, please tell me where my thinking has gone awry.
Picture of Raymond Guy
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Raymond Guy - Friday, 23 February 2007, 10:48 AM
 

The points around the openness of networks is heavily related to the politics of institutions, governement, .edu, private and public.  The challenge I have noticed is the difficulty to find mechanisms that bridge the proprietary nature of traditional intranets and nodes.  This is somewhat related to a lack of attention to the dynamics of the changing potential of the web to facilitate our connectivity.

The models around the prosumer described by Toffler (The Third Wave and Revolutionary Wealth) and Don Tapscott (Wikinomics) are fundamental in connectivism.  This is less around the technology but the way people use and contextualize the knowledge that is available. 

I think of consortia around learning object repositories.  The ideals these groups promote are to share knowledge in an open and transparent manner.  The discussion around the technology and standards for sharing is the simple aspects of this type of networking.  Where deeper challenges lie at the level where institutions need to open themselves to sharing without reaping immediate monetary benefits.  The local repositories may grow but do not open themselves to general sharing.  There are some repositories that work well but the proportion of institutional "prosumers" is low relative to the "consumers".  What drives the repositories is the number of prosumers at the individual level.

Technology is an enabler but the desired result formulated within the individual's or group's context or ecology are what drive the desire to connect and foster the activity at the nodes.  I believe this ties in closely with the ecological model that George refers to in his work.   

Our educational institutions have been built around proprietary models.  Connectivism relies on the willingness of institutions (and individuals) to let some boundaries fall. 

Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Saturday, 24 February 2007, 02:46 PM
  Thanks for this Ray,(and Virginia, thanks even more)

Can I simply say yo! and start here'; "to find models that bridge the proprietary nature of traditional intranets and nodes". I'm just thinking in the .edu domains, or to be specific, each countries NREN (National Research and Education Networks) - Canarie in Canada, INternet2 in the US, Aarnet in Australia, etc. The model which is being used by network builders to overcome the institutional silo effect is called grid/virtual org model. I'll just point to planet labs site to give you an idea of their perspective. If you click on projects you'll get an idea of "cutting slices between institutional networks".

So far as virtual room stuff is concerned, Accessgrid is a good illustration of the model in action. In the "consortia of learning object repositories", it's equivilant would be something like LOCKSS or OMN. One is comms centric, one is info centric, and never the twain doth meet.

The point I've been trying to explain (badly) is that the grids are always attached to semantically classified nodes, and repositories are usually buried on an institutional name or maybe something like globalschoolnet. So unless one knows, they can never be discovered. Whereas what we are attempting to do is classify the network nodes on behalf of global peers or working groups, by the content passing through them, and give them a fixed spot in cyberspace. So, with a little direction from a librarian and a little browsing, a global student or teacher has a chance of finding some interesting up-to -date (and old) repositories and connecting with a particular community of interest.

Meantime, the virtual network (i.e.grid) and application builders need a way to say, "which node on which NREN needs to be connected and fixed, so (say) Connectivism's communities of interest might find one another, regardless of what country they come from, which language is their first, and share their communications and store their repositories". My thinking leads me to look towards a new third tier domain; the second tier if youré in Nth America, groups.edu. and adapt an old taxonomy like the DDC to classify nodes in each country's NREN. It gives me hope people can find the content and peers they want a little easier.

I think people and institutions are quite happy to let the boundaries fall, so long as they can put some less restictive institutions in their place.
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 03:42 PM
  "Aw dad, email is soooo twentieth century". That's the one a friend got from his kid a few years ago. But I know what yu mean. It would be nice to have each message on the one thread, in a digest, like I receive daily from over here. Is that connectivism in action? Helps keep things together a bit better for me. Still, u know how it is for those youngsters. It's about environment, not messages. We're showing our age.

Seems like we're chalk and cheese on the assembly line analogy. Works Ok for eteaching, but from the little I've reflected on from george's book, it makes me think Connectivism is about elearning, so there's no 'line' on the components, just webs (of networks).

I'm with yu though on the isolated hard drive being pretty useless in itself (except mine of course, around which the universe revolves). In geekdom, you'd appreciate, a big disc is partitioned and a space on it given an IP address, and directed to, today, by a semantic domain name, In English of course (we don't want foreigners getting uppity). So, as far as peers being made capable of tracking down the spaces of global peers, that idea of using the dewey code to connect them, is simply systemizing the slicing between discs, so peers can share their CPU's as well as their files.

I'm just watching the evolution of one way, national, institution-centric media to a model that is global, interactive, multi-media-centric around groups. So regardless of whether we're talking radio, TV, text or whatever, I know i can go to one place and ask it's librarians and community what's new, and old. At the moment, as you say, the present media is far to centralized and controlled. Broadcast is in the main boring, but it's what we've inherited. Just imagine if we took these networks and starting running conferences as you see them, regularly, and just for a change, kept the virtual room's libraries with their associated communication nodes.
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by simon fenton-jones - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 10:34 AM
  Thanks Karyn,

Not sure what u mean by "what's new here is the inclusion of technological nodes in the network". From my perspective, the stringing together of nodes IS a network. So we don't have to get geekish, node = domain. In our immediate case http://ltc.umanitoba.ca. And a node can (appear to) connect comms as well as info. Check out this skype forum.
Of course you'd need to have one of these buttons to help connect. http://c.skype.com/i/share_new/buttons/anim_balloon.gif

We certainly agree on the P+P+t though.
http://headrush.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/learningnotoneway.jpg

Picture of Jeffrey Keefer
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by Jeffrey Keefer - Tuesday, 20 February 2007, 02:36 PM
 

Virginia, I liked your work here about collaborating with others, and enlarging the network as you mentioned. I have also had a similar experience with writing and presenting, with next week the third paper being presented that was written with somebody I only met for the first time after the second paper was written.

I am wondering, however, if this is indeed connectivism as we have been using it here in the conference. Thinking about the academic work you listed in your first example, when we divided the work and then did it, there was enough debriefing at the end that we both understood everything that happened. The knowledge that was created was presented and shared together at the conference; it was not something that existed between the two of us pooling our resources to have a larger whole than us both and that then remained that way.

Picture of George Siemens
Re: Is connectivism only web-based or technology based?
by George Siemens - Wednesday, 21 February 2007, 05:18 PM
  Hi Virginia - the challenges of how communities function are important in our online/f2f world (which is rapidly blurring). I haven't read the responses to this thread, so it may have been tackled already. However, we are currently researching the "psychological sense of community" (Sarason) in an online community. The challenge is enormous. We don't have the language to be able to describe the experiences (we currently use terms like "belonging, trust, identity", but I think there is enough unique about online communities that we need to stop trying to apply exclusively f2f concepts.

In terms of the situation you note - i.e. vandalism, lack fo respect, etc. due to people not being a part of the group - are you suggesting that the shift to onlien communities is creating problems within physical communities (i.e. vandalism)? I.e. as we build global connections, we lose local identity or sense of community?
Picture of Frederica-Azania Calre
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Frederica-Azania Calre - Tuesday, 13 March 2007, 07:18 AM
 

Hi Folks!

http://www.villagetalk.net/faq/one-question?entry_id=4998 

JUST TESTING A REPLY  by adding SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.

Hope the LINK works! Pax, Azania: http://www.villagetalk.net/faq/one-question?entry_id=4998

Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by simon fenton-jones - Tuesday, 13 March 2007, 01:09 PM
  Now Frederica, Please!

No more below the radar. And please don't go to my Aussie site. It's the wrong context for connecting with the communities who can complement your yebo Initiative. I only pointed there to give you some idea of what trainers in Oz talk about. The hardest thing, if you want to turn Connectivism in theory into Connectivism in practice, is finding the right context.

In my limited knowledge, I've already pointed yu to the context which could help you advance yebo. I appreciate your suggestion of the villagetalk approach. But that is just a tool for connecting with an institution's academic community, like this one. It's not a tool for communicating with an established global community who want to, by connecting, effect a real change in people's living.

So I'll say again. THIS is the right forum if you want connect with people with the same things in mind as yourself; to help " Poor youth...internationally; 12 y.o. to 22; especially, black youth in Africa, and the African diaspora..." It IS a challenge to get orientated at any site. This one is no different. But TIG can help you having to reinvent a wheel. You would have found, if you'd taken the effort after registering, that their boards are here. You will find their groups here. You'll find their projects here.

So please! Let's not overstay our welcome here. George has been kind enough to put this place up, and it's such a rare occurance in the academic space I'm feeling guilty that our discussion is hindering it's development. At least we may have given some practical illustration of connectivism in action. So principle 1, we might say, is find the right context.

OK. No more emails. No more entries on this moodle. If you want to connect. 1 = register at TIG. 2 = find a project, group(s) and their board. 3 = Make an entry on an appropriate board to tell people what you're up to. 4 = Send me a link to it. I'm sorry to be abrupt but if you can't do this then we can't connect in any meaningful way.
Picture of George Siemens
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by George Siemens - Tuesday, 13 March 2007, 01:57 PM
  Hi Simon ...and others - just a quick note - you may certainly take the conversation off site into a forum or context that better meets your own needs or objectives. However, you are more than welcome to stay here and converse. The value of online conferences rests partly in the ability to dialogue after the conference itself has ended...(and capturing these conversations for those who show up in the future for research, review, or additional dialogue)

George
Picture of simon fenton-jones
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by simon fenton-jones - Thursday, 15 March 2007, 04:59 PM
  Thanks George, Stephen, Virginia,

And excuse me for being abrupt. I really would like to help Frederica, and she's sent me a bunch of stuff below the radar about what's she's trying to do. This doesn't mean we're going away. It just means that when F gets over there and starts to meet the established community at TIG (and sends me a link), we'll be able to do more with her YEBO idea than here. The one thing i have so much problem in overcoming is this idea that just because we go off to another site to do something, we're somehow being disloyal. And I refuse to use email because it confuses and overwhelms me.

It's just so bloody silly but a product of the way that web sites have developed. E.g You know i tried to get educationau to run this kind of ongoing conference in Oz, but because yu and other speakers didn't register and start talking with the edna community, the silo mentality remains. (Not in the community; like Stephen they're all over the web, but with the techs building the network and attempting to understand our community's demands). My situation is that I know enough about IP networks (and grids) to understand that the biggest problem for all global .edu communities is that we have no directory for the environments of similar global communities of practice. And rather than going into what i mean here, you might check out the last comment to Joe at Webjunction (which is a part of the OCLC monster)

And thanks again. If you think you're going to get rid of me, when i read something like this from Virginia, "if we can begin to categorize systems, communities, and networks, we can cross boarders, institutions, and create deeper levels of knowledge by determining ways to access the knowledge embedded in the various levels" , think again. The only mistake you make Virginia, which kinda makes everything work, is that, on a grid, if one node goes down, the others take up the load.

Really like this though, "I would say that the conference was an example of networks, the follow-up discussions, especially those that have gone beyond the conference period, are the beginning of communitY". cheers
Stephen Downes portrait
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Stephen Downes - Tuesday, 13 March 2007, 02:45 PM
  > I'm sorry to be abrupt but if you can't do this then we can't connect in any meaningful way.

Hmph. My way or the highway?
Picture of Peter Clitheroe
Re: Context filter-Business and Workplace Education/Training
by Peter Clitheroe - Tuesday, 8 May 2007, 12:35 PM
  ... and isn't that the way that a network becomes a group and thus loses not just the benefits of the immediate nodes and connections but also the potential of further nodes and connections.

I'm not sure whether this is:
1. an inevitable part of the networking process or,
2. an unfortunate tendency that we need to be aware of or perhaps it is,
3. just the recognition that another node is forming to which we have links.

I feel instinctively wary of groups. John Harvey-Jones suggested to me, when I referred to a group of 20 people, that there is no such thing as a group of more than 8 people - they will always subdivide to keep under 8. I think he's right and that being part of (note: not a member of) a network does require conscious effort to avoid the group trap.

Bet you thought this thread was expired!